In this post, we will unravel a quote by Mark Tobert mentioned by Leighton Flowers in one of his videos. Flowers did not provide the link to the quote source. He mentioned it was on the "Desiring God" website, I searched the site exhaustively, and it is possible it is there somewhere, but I could not locate it.
However, I did eventually locate the quote, it is from the book "Suffering and the Sovereignty of God" by John Piper and Justin Taylor first printed in 2006. The quote given by Flowers was from a section written by Mark Tobert.
I have not heard of Mark Tobert before, so I don't know his views. However, in the context of this quote, he is attempting to explain actions that occurred in a concentration camp and the brutality committed against the Jews, which caused a young man named Elie Wiesel to throw off his faith as a result of what he observed. The fact that God allowed such evil convinced him that men must be stronger than God. The quote by Tobert is difficult to accept, but we must understand the subject he is addressing is difficult to answer.
The first part of the quote was taken from page 42 "God . . . brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Ex. 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Heb. 12:3-11; James 1:2-4). This includes, as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem, God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child:" the rest of the quote occurred later and is from page 47 of the book, '“The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil” (Prov. 16:4, NASB ). Flowers neglected to post the scripture references provided by the author defending his statements so I included them here. It should also be noted the author of the quote gave much explanation for the statements he puts forward which Flowers does not include. It should be understood in the context of this quote Mark Tobert also said, {". . .we need to know what Scripture says in general about God’s relationship to evil. Scripture declares that the Judge of all the earth will always do what is right (see Gen. 18:25). God is, as Moses sings, “the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just.” He is a “faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he” (Deut. 32:4, NIV). God never does evil. Page 41 “All the good that is ours in Christ”}
Going back to the original quote given by Flowers, how could someone possibly suggest God would do such things? It seems God himself would, Isaiah Chapter 19, God is actively stirring up evil in the heart of the Egyptians. He is going to move them against each other, people are going to be killed, and families are going to be broken. As the text goes on God is going to bring about catastrophes that will create hunger and starvation.
{Isa 19:1 An oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud and comes to Egypt; and the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.
Isa 19:2 And I will stir up Egyptians against Egyptians, and they will fight, each against another and each against his neighbor, city against city, kingdom against kingdom}.
Also,
{2Sa 24:1 Again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go, number Israel and Judah.”} After inciting David against Israel, God punished David for the sin He incited him to commit.
{2Sa 24:13 So Gad came to David and told him, and said to him, “Shall three years of famine come to you in your land? Or will you flee three months before your foes while they pursue you? Or shall there be three days' pestilence in your land? Now consider, and decide what answer I shall return to him who sent me.”} David chose the pestilence as his punishment and God killed 70,000 of the people of Israel, which would include women and children.
{2Sa 24:15 So the LORD sent a pestilence on Israel from the morning until the appointed time. And there died of the people from Dan to Beersheba 70,000 men.} Again God lashes out at Isreal saying, {Amo 3:1 Hear this word that the LORD has spoken against you, O people of Israel, against the whole family that I brought up out of the land of Egypt:} then declares, {Amo 3:6 Is a trumpet blown in a city, and the people are not afraid? Does disaster come to a city, unless the LORD has done it?} God declares if a disaster comes to a city, it will not come unless He causes it.
We could look at {1Sa 16:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a harmful spirit from the LORD tormented him. God even controls and commands harmful or evil spirits.
1Sa 16:15 And Saul's servants said to him, “Behold now, a harmful spirit from God is tormenting you.} or {Num 21:6 Then the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died.} We could consider, {2Ki 21:12 therefore thus says the LORD, the God of Israel: Behold, I am bringing upon Jerusalem and Judah such disaster that the ears of everyone who hears of it will tingle.}
In the New Testament, {Act 5:3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land?
Act 5:4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to man but to God.”
Act 5:5 When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last. And great fear came upon all who heard of it.
Act 5:6 The young men rose and wrapped him up and carried him out and buried him.
Act 5:7 After an interval of about three hours his wife came in, not knowing what had happened.
Act 5:8 And Peter said to her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for so much.” And she said, “Yes, for so much.”
Act 5:9 But Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.”
Act 5:10 Immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. When the young men came in they found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.
Act 5:11 And great fear came upon the whole church and upon all who heard of these things.} Why did they have great fear? God was killing people!
Needless to say, we could go on and on with God's absolute Sovereignty over His creation, yet we also find verses such as {Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,} There appears great tension throughout the Scriptures between those portions that speak of God's Sovereignty and those that speak of man's responsibility. He commands men to choose rightly and then declares He is sovereign over their choices. It is difficult for us to understand how God can control everything and man still be free to choose his own way.
There are depts of Theological thought that dig deep into the concepts of how to understand these things. They are far beyond the scope of this blogger. Simply making distinctions between the creature and the Creator is helpful. God decrees concerning all things that come to pass are outside the confines of time and space. It was all called into being from eternity. The man then, in turn, experiences them from inside space and time as they unfold before him. All our choices are real and effectual choices that bear for us real consequences. The relation between eternal decrees and their unfolding in each of our lives is a mystery to us. The fact that man's fall is not outside the realm of God's decree has to be understood in such a way that man's choice to disobey was a real choice of which he was responsible. God was free to decree it to be, yet the man's will was free to choose and he therefore would bear the consequences of his choices. It is here we find the concept of God's will of decree and His will of command. If we omit our understanding of God's will of decree, we are left with a God who is no longer sovereign and is reacting to events of which he is not responsible. If we omit our understanding of God's will of command, we are left with man's freedom and personal volition destroyed. We must allow for both in forming our understanding or we will err on one side or the other.
This is where people like Flowers have always erred, in an attempt to strengthen and protect man's freedom they weaken God's sovereignty. They build their theology upon those Scriptures relating to man's freedom while limiting those pertaining to God's sovereignty. The Scriptures equally confess both, therefore to remain faithful to the Scriptures we must embrace both.
The Scriptures confirm the quotes of Mark Tobert, yet at the same time, each atrocity and sinful act engaged by the perpetrator was his own free and sinful act. The evil that was decreed from eternity originated from the sinful nature of the people involved and not from God. God's will of decree from eternity, which must come to pass of necessity, does not negate the responsibility of those who willfully disobey God's will of command in time and space fulfilling the will of decree. Flower's genuine attempt to help people understand God's goodness only confuses them when confronted by God's statements of His Sovereign acts.
We are confronted throughout the Bible with Scriptures such as
{Pro 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.} and
{Pro 19:21 Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the LORD that will stand.} and of course
{Psa 33:9 For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm. Psa 33:10 The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; he frustrates the plans of the peoples.
Psa 33:11 The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the plans of his heart to all generations.
To refute these Scriptures and statements like those of Mark Tobert, Flowers references other Scriptures like,
{Jer 19:4 Because the people have forsaken me and have profaned this place by making offerings in it to other gods whom neither they nor their fathers nor the kings of Judah have known; and because they have filled this place with the blood of innocents,
Jer 19:5 and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I did not command or decree, nor did it come into my mind—
Jer 19:6 therefore, behold, days are coming, declares the LORD, when this place shall no more be called Topheth, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter.}
See, God did not decree everything that comes to pass, no, it didn't even enter His mind. However, when Flowers quotes Jeremiah 19:5, he uses the ESV version to quote from. I have to wonder if the reason for that is the ESV is the only version I found that translated the Hebrew word (צָוָה) as "decree".
The KJV, ASV, ERV, GNB, ISV, and YLT all translate it as "command". The Hebrew definition from Strongs dictionary concordance is,
H6680
צָוָה
tsâvâh
tsaw-vaw'
A primitive root; (intensively) to constitute, enjoin: - appoint, (for-) bid. (give a) charge, (give a, give in, send with) command (-er, ment), send a messenger, put, (set) in order.
Jeremiah 19:5 is not saying God did not decree it to be from eternity (will of decree) or it most certainly would not have been. Jeremiah is saying God did not command in their law (the law of Moses) to worship in such a barbaric fashion, that it could not even enter into His mind to command such a law (will of command). When we try to avoid the concept of these two wills we find in the Bible, we begin to enter varying degrees of Open Theism. From there, we must admit God created without full knowledge of His creation. He is learning as redemptive history unfolds, that He is not omnipotent and cannot control the lives and events of people existing in the history He created. It is not He who determines the outcome of this redemptive History, but man whom God cannot control. It is from this position Elie Wiesel abandons his faith in Mark Tobert's related story above, having come to the conclusion that man was stronger than.
We have the Scriptures where we find the description of this all-powerful and all-knowing God. We see examples of His sovereignty demonstrated throughout its pages. We hear Him proclaim to be the God that created all things and does all He pleases while accomplishing all His will. That He is presently upholding all things by the Word of His power, both good and evil.
We also have the Scriptures where we find man doing as he pleases, disregarding God's commands, and committing unmentionable violence and horror against the innocent. This can only be reconciled when making the distinction between the (Will of Decree) and the (will of Command). Otherwise, we find ourselves arguing over things we do not understand and developing a theology that is less than it should be. May we embrace both aspects of the redemptive history seen in the pages of Scripture.
May God bless,
David
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