In our last post, Sarge responded with a rather sharp rebuke to my perspective in the comment section. He raised some rather interesting questions and instead of answering him through the comments, I think it would be good to do that here on the blog. That will provide better exposure to the exchange as we wrestle with these issues. Because of the complexity involved, I will post his complete inquiry below and address the individual grievances after that.
David believes because I don't view God's massacre of the world population (Noah's flood) as a believer, I can't possibly understand the reasoning for the massacre, the killing (murder, infanticide) of innocent children and babies. According to David, as an atheist, I can only see senseless death and not the divine intervention of a merciful God. David, as a Christian apologist, and from his perspective, sees the massacre of the human race including innocent infants and children as God's divine right and justice. My dear friend David, what a bunch of gobbledygook (nonsense).
The killing of innocent children and infants by God for any reason and from any perspective is an abominable act by an unrestrained monster. Many Christians disapprove of abortion (as I do), yet they take it in stride the mass killings of living children and babies. They do give God "a pass" on this evil act.
Perspective? Let's look at Noah's flood from a child's perspective. A four-year-old girl is placed on higher ground by her parents who are about to be washed away by the ravaging flood waters. As the little girl's parents are washed away along with everything else the little girl knows of her world, she stands alone shivering in fright and shock, and cries hopelessly out loud for her mom and dad before she too is washed away. A defenseless innocent little girl is destroyed after suffering the horror of watching her loved ones and the world around her disappear destroyed by a terrorist. Perspective? All of that was made possible by a raving out-of-control heartless God. How could anyone see that differently, regardless of one's belief or non-belief, perspective?
But, let our hearts not be troubled, from a Christian perspective, God's wrath of destruction and infanticide is a matter of divine intervention for a world gone astray. Christian will understand, or, at the very least accept his justice. Why? For a loving God can do no wrong, no matter how macabre his actions are or how innocent and young his victims are. That my friends, is the danger of religion, blind faith! Humanity, compassion becomes selective to faith and religion.
It's interesting that a world designed by a God that is said to not be capable of doing anything wrong had to destroy the world he created because it went wrong. A world gone wrong that apparently God didn't see coming. I thought God knew everything, including the future.
Thankfully, the out-of-control angry God and his infanticide and mass murder are only a mythical story and not reality. Regrettably, too many people believe it is true, and poisons their perspective on reality and true justice.
Until next time, this is Sarge (formerly known as Gene) signing out"
Later when discussing guns, the man complains about this particular seller, he states the man tried to sell him a gun that wouldn't fire. The man explains the seller is dishonest and cannot be trusted! He's a monster!
The man told the truth about the gun, and perhaps he wanted a gun that would shoot without ammunition, however, that's not going to happen. The general rule here is if you are going to complain about the gun not shooting, you must also accept the reason it will not.
Sarge takes issue with Noah's flood in the Bible, he states; "I can't possibly understand the reasoning for the massacre, the killing (murder, infanticide) of innocent children and babies." Sarge takes an event out of the Bible, changes the context in which it existed, and then complains about his newly formed context. He complains of murder, and infanticide, of the innocent. If that were the context, he would be justified in his condemnation. His context of innocence is strangely missing from the text, the text reads, Genesis 6:11-13 ESV
(11) Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight, and the earth was filled with violence.
(12) And God saw the earth, and behold, it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth.
(13) And God said to Noah, “I have determined to make an end of all flesh, for the earth is filled with violence through them. Behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
If the text read that God destroyed the earth killing all the innocent children with it, then Sarge would be on track. The context in which the flood existed was a world filled with violence, all flesh, not most, but all was corrupt in their way. We find those conditions still plaguing the Earth,
Romans 3:10 ESV
(10) as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; therefore, whenever and however God chooses to judge this world, He is justified, for there is not a single one who is righteous.
Sarge states; "Thankfully, the out-of-control angry God and his infanticide and mass murder are only a mythical story and not reality." Yet he makes up his own mythical story to contain innocent children and babies and then condemns the Biblical account using his own myth. The rules still apply, the gun will not shoot without ammunition and the Biblical God will not condemn the righteous.
Perspective? Let's add some Biblical perspective, the story Sarge presents is a real tear-jerker. Who would not bail in and swim over in an attempt to save that dear 4-year-old child? Well, believe it or not, there are many so depraved today that they wouldn't. They might under other circumstances abduct her and molest her in the most horrid ways. That is the reality of the world we live in. We must not assume innocence where it is specifically denied. This little girl is living in a world where every intention of the thoughts of the heart is evil continually.
Genesis 6:5 ESV
(5) The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Her world before the flood was not one of innocence. We read later in the scriptures some of the levels of human depravity. It would not be unfair to judge that they were any worse than the pre-diluvan world. Had the flood not come in her lifetime, she possibly could have been sacrificed by her own parents in some form of corrupted worship.
(21) You shall not give any of your children to offer them to Molech, and so profane the name of your God: I am the LORD.
According to National Geographic, more than 140 children appear to have been ritually sacrificed in an event that took place some 550 years ago near the capital of the Chimú Empire. Sarge presents a mythical story of innocence being abused by a monster God. The problem with his suggestion is that he suggests his mythical story is parallel to the Biblical story. In the Biblical account, there is no innocence. Without the flood, this little girl would have been exposed to a violent completely corrupted society of which she was a part. If her own parents did not abuse her, her society most certainly would have. Perspective? This little girl lived where the state of the whole human society was " . . . every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." That would include her as soon as her reasoning faculties developed. Where is the justice in letting this society continue to grow and fester? What if God endured with much long-suffering, yet finally brought judgment upon such a world? Are we to call Him the monster?
Romans 9:22-23 KJV
(22) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
(23) And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Noah and his family were no better than the rest, yet God had given him grace that he might be saved from the impending judgment upon men, and therefore preserve the race until God's plan of redemption was revealed. Though still sinful, man's depravity is now restrained so that he might receive mercy and forgiveness for his sins. God has built into human life barriers and restraints to mitigate this evil, to subdue sinful passion and expression so that man can make a society and be civilized and have a measure of joy and gratitude. One of those restraints is our own conscience which weighs upon us and binds our passions. As this conscience grows cold the human depravity is exposed in greater measures. We see this in our society today, those who still possess the greater conscience are shocked at what those of a lesser conscience are capable of. By God's grace many today, even the unregenerate (unbeliever), still possess a conscience sufficient to hold a social moral code and maintain some measure of peace.
2 Thessalonians 2:7 ESV
(7) For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.
The world Sarge sees is, man's conscience is his own, if he is a good man, he is good on his own. He himself deserves to be the judge over what is right and wrong. He of his own self determines the bounds of society. That world is all right and good until the human conscience goes the wrong way. That world depends upon man's own goodness, yet man's own history does not speak well for that.
Sarge states; "But, let our hearts not be troubled, from a Christian perspective, God's wrath of destruction and infanticide is a matter of divine intervention for a world gone astray. Christian will understand, or, at the very least accept his justice. Why? For a loving God can do no wrong, no matter how macabre his actions are or how innocent and young his victims are. That my friends, is the danger of religion, blind faith! Humanity, compassion becomes selective to faith and religion."
Just how macabre are God's actions? Isaiah 53:1-12 ESV
(1) Who has believed what he has heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
(2) For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him.
(3) He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
(4) Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.
(5) But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.
(6) All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
(7) He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth.
(8) By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?
(9) And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
(10) Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
(11) Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.
(12) Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors.
Because of what God has done, we may drown in a flood, only that we may pass into the heavens. We may suffer from disease, so that we may long all the more for what He has provided for his people. The wonder of redemption is a marvelous thing to a soul. I enjoy this life, we have a great country and our society still maintains many comforts. However, when the world goes bad my joy remains. If in His providence I pass in the flood, I only pass from a fallen life to a redeemed life.
Romans 8:18-25 ESV
(18) For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
(19) For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God.
(20) For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope
(21) that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
(22) For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.
(23) And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
(24) For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?
(25) But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.
Sarge's theology is pretty good for a non-believer, he did get half of that right. God certainly is not capable of doing anything wrong, and nothing has ever occurred in creation that He did not see from eternity. The world as it is is exactly like God intended it to be at any particular time in the past, present, and future. God cannot not know. He must know of necessity for He created time and everything in it. Of the infinite possible worlds He could make, this world is the highest world possible that could complete his eternal purpose and establish the greatest revelation of Himself. If God had desired a world different that the one we have, that is the world we would have. But to have another world with different events, we would need another eternal purpose than our current one.
Isaiah 46:9-10 ESV
(9) remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,
(10) declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
Lest we are to think God was surprised that man fell, or lest we should think Christ was plan B to a failed plan A.
1 Peter 1:19-20 KJV
(19) But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
(20) Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
And what about your life? Does he know of your life and of what it will be?
Matthew 13:34-35 KJV
(34) All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
(35) That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
Matthew 25:34 KJV
(34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Ephesians 1:4 KJV
(4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Hebrews 4:3 ESV
(3) For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest,’” although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 13:8 ESV
(8) and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
Revelation 17:8 ESV
(8) The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.
If I told you I beat my children, left my wife, took my son's dog, and killed her puppies with a bush blade, what would think of me? I'm a monster! But there is information you do not know, I disciplined my children sometimes with a belt when they misbehaved, I left my wife every day to go to work and provide for my family, and my son's dog had puppies in an old dozer pile; some had drowned before I found them, the rest were still alive but were infested with maggots. All I had available was a bush blade, it was heartbreaking, but I had to kill them. Some additional information changes the perspective.
Some might see this as fatalism, Adam had no choice, God created it in such a way He had to fail. This is because we are finite in our being, limited in our minds, and bound by space and time. God in His being, exists outside of time and we see his works in time, and God seeing time and all events of time cannot but know everything that happens in time, that includes the acts of Adam.
However, knowing the acts of Adam from outside of time does not mean that Adam in time does not have a free choice to do as he pleases. Adam's fall was wholly Adam's fall. All that followed Adam came from Adam, they were of his loins, of his nature. We are sinful because Adam is our father, we are what he is, earthy.
1 Corinthians 15:47-49 ESV
(47) The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
(48) As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.
(49) Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.
God, outside of time, works His salvation in time through real-time events. As the scripture previously stated, if our names are written in the Book of Life, sometime in our lifetime we will hear the Gospel, believe, and come to Christ. If not we will not and will be eternally dammed. You might say, if my name is not written in the book, then it cannot be my fault!
Romans 9:19-24 ESV
(19) You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”
(20) But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”
(21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?
(22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
(23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—
(24) even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
If you reject Christ, it is really you who is rejecting Him in time and space. It is a real choice, not some form of Fatalism. God works in time and space with all the real-time events to accomplish His will and purpose.
Philippians 2:12-13 ESV
(12) Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling,
(13) for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
All else I know to say to these things is,
Mark 12:10-11 ESV
(10) Have you not read this Scripture: “‘The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone;
(11) this was the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes’?”
May God bless,
David
