Tuesday, December 31, 2024
Sunday, December 1, 2024
Confession of an EX- Pastor "Agnostic"
Unfortunately, his story is not rare nor is it a new phenomenon. Defection from the Christian faith has been present throughout history, with Judas being the most popular. The interview with Mr. Gibson is one of the best I've viewed. He presents himself as a very nice man and his sincerity is obvious from the beginning. Undoubtedly, he is passionate about his beliefs and genuinely cares about people and what he perceives as truth. He was cordial during the interview and was not hostile toward Christianity while using language that would be acceptable even to young children. Some atheist apologists cut themselves off from the very audience they propose to reach by their arrogance and foul language, but that is not the case with Mr. Gibson.
In recollecting his experiences with Christianity, his honesty appeals to those having similar doubts about their faith. I found no hyperbole or dishonesty and many of the falsities of Christianity he described are found in most churches. It's called cultural Christianity and it fills the American Church today. As it develops in a society it at first appears to and does to some extent provide a positive aspect to the culture. However, the end result always produces rotten fruit. That fruit is a culture of Christianity where Church membership and religious emotion are equated with true Christianity.
Many of us of the older generation, like Mr. Gibson, grew up in Church and as he put it, we were born on the church pew so to speak. Like Mr. Gibson, we were taken to a Sunday School room and taught Bible stories that were watered down to our age level. We were told about Heaven and Hell and the way to escape Hell and go to Heaven was to accept Jesus into our lives. In the minds of most 7-year-olds, the thought of hell is quite frightening, and the aspect of a place called Heaven in contrast is quite appealing. If we acknowledged we didn't want to go to hell we were told to let Jesus into our hearts and accept Him as our Lord and Saviour. When we affirmed our assent we were pronounced saved and baptized and were from that moment considered Christians.
Mr. Gibson in his interview expressed a problem with being born a sinner and does not like to think he's the one who is responsible for being an offense to God. However, he states he buried such questions in his mind because at seven years of age he didn't have the maturity to process such information. He says later he felt a calling to become a pastor, but admits now looking back on it, it was more of the culture he was in that drew him to the pastorate. In the circles of Christianity that were influencing him, it was one of the highest achievements to become a Pastor and he wanted that. He elaborates how he wanted to be something more than a regular Christian, he wanted to do something great for God. He was constantly told to listen for the voice of God, there might be a call to the Pastorate. He interprets this desire to be a special person as this voice of God calling him to the ministry. He very honestly verbalizes some of the questions he was pondering in his mind which reveals he never really understood the concepts of the Gospel, the nature of God nor the true nature of man from a Biblical perspective. The concepts he was expressing were from a religious mystical and emotional understanding rather than a Biblical understanding of the Gospel. This is no fault of his, cultural Christianity had influenced his thinking and reasoning, and had it not done so, he may never have even entered the ministry.
As he gives decriptions of the sermons he preached, you realize they were not what historical Christianity would consider God-honoring sermons or conducive to true Christianity. They were emotionally based and man-centered self-promotional type sermons. Very little about God and much about what men can get out of Christianity. This though done in sincerity does not produce Christianity.
He mentions problems began to arise in his Pastorate when he took a stand on same-sex marriages. He had preached a message titled, “God loves Gays”. When it came out he was immediately questioned concerning his stand on the subject. He answered he did not believe homosexuality was a sin and began officiating same-sex marriages. This created all kinds of issues and he suggests the circles of Christianity he was a part of started advising him it was okay to hold these positions personally but he could not publicly present them or it would destroy his church. All this led him to question everything he had previously believed about Christianity and the way he had interpreted the Bible, the result being a complete apostatizing from the faith. Contradictions began to be apparent to him in the scriptures, he saw the Biblical text now as nothing more than a complete mess of contradicting statements.
This is not to demean his character, for he demonstrates true sincerity when stating his journey away from Christianity and affirming he couldn't preach something he didn't believe. This was a very honorable thing to do and he should be commended for leaving the ministry and being true to his beliefs. Most of the so-called pastors on Christian television should take note of his honesty and do the same. However, it is not likely they ever will for they love the popularity and the success it brings.
He continues expressing his frustrations with his Christian friends who were advising him to just fake it, he knew how to preach, so why didn't he just fake it. They should have encouraged him to leave and done the same thing themselves. The Visible Church, especially the American Church is every bit as bad if not worse than he suggests. However, Mr. Gibson does go on to say that most Pastors in the ministry live a moderate life and genuinely care about the people they serve. I assume he is talking about Christianity outside the Mega TV pastor environment we see so much of today. No doubt there is corruption and fakery everywhere, but certainly not at the levels we see in the TV Mega Church industry.
Mr. Gibson said if one could look at the Church and see there were no divorces, no one dying prematurely, no storms destroying their homes, one might say there was something to this Christianity. This again demonstrates he does not understand Biblical Christianity. Evolution has replaced the Gospel as truth. He now immensely enjoys learning all the evidence presented by science. When asked what advice he would give his younger self, say 25 years ago, he admits he probably wouldn't have listened to any advice anyway, his mind was not open enough to accept a different view of the world. I don't doubt that to be true, we all have a tendency to close our minds to opposing views in most cases, but he must admit that to be true now as well. The only difference is, his perspective based on his analysis of the information has only led him to another closed minded conclusion. He suggests one should read books on the other side just to get another perspective, which is good advice for anyone to follow. However, having a misunderstanding of one perspective while reading another can lead to a very wrong conclusion in a comparative annalist. Mr. Gibson is an excellent example of a cultural Christian and how the mind quickly turns when confronted with questions it cannot answer. The full interview can be viewed at the The Thinking Atheist
Contrary to what cultural Christianity taught Mr. Gibson, being a Christian is not about how you were raised, how sincerely you want to be good, or how much you want to do something great for God. Many are raised in good families who desire their children to be honest people and positively affect society. Many from such families grow up to be good people making great neighbors and faithful friends. Some go on to pursue these efforts through hard work in public service and charitable organizations. Some like Mr. Gibson seek to fulfill these desires through some religion or religious service. If human history tells us anything, it does not matter how high we bring society, it is only for it to fall with the need to build again. This is true with nations as well as individuals.
Mr. Gibson is not the first to find himself disillusioned with cultural Christianity. Justin Peters had a similar experience, Justin states, "I was supposedly “saved” and baptized at age seven. Growing up in church, I knew all the right answers. The two components of genuine conversion are faith in Christ (not just in Him but in His Person and sufficient atonement), and repentance of sins. Did I have faith in Christ? Yes, I did – just like I had faith in Santa Clause. He was real to me too. My faith in Jesus, like my faith in Santa, was immature and childish. There is a big difference between a child-like faith and a childish faith. A child-like faith (“Whoever does not receive the Kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it at all.” Mark 10:15) is one that acknowledges absolute helplessness and inability before God. Just as a child is completely unable to physically care for and provide for himself; i.e. a child cannot pay a mortgage, get a job, put food on the table, etc., so are we completely unable from a spiritual standpoint to provide for ourselves. And as far as repentance goes, exactly how does a 7 year-old repent? How does a child that young show genuine repentance? From what does he repent? The only commandment children are given in Scripture is to obey their parents. I dare say that as I grew older I disobeyed my Dad and Mom more, not less."
Justin describes how he felt called to the ministry, entered seminary, achieved two degrees, and preached eventually around the world. As his ministry grew, much like Mr. Gibson, he began to have questions and see contradictions in what he understood to be the Gospel. However, unlike Mr. Gibson, after years in the ministry, he found true repentance with the assurance of true faith. You can read Justin's full testimony by following this link: Justin Peter's Minsitries
Salvation is a gift, it is not a religion that binds us to a confining behavior as Mr. Gibson describes in his experience.
Ephesians 2:4-9 ESV
(4) But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
(5) even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
(6) and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
(7) so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
(8) For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
(9) not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
The Gospel is a simple trust in the work of Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4 ESV
(1) Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand,
(2) and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. (Sadly Mr. Gibson believed in vain)
(3) For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,
(4) that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures,
This is a faith the vast majority of mankind will not have.
Matthew 7:14 ESV
(14) For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
The way is hard not because of the work required, but because the unrepentant heart cannot see it. The heart that is given repentance finds liberty and rest from its burdens.
Matthew 11:28-30 ESV
(28) Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
(29) Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
(30) For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
If you find your heart burdened and have been given a desire for repentance, this Gospel is for your Salvation and the glory of God in Christ Jesus. However, if you have no fear of hell and judgment because you are convinced it does not exist. If you are not burdened by your sins because you do not believe they exist. You will have alieved yourself from a troubling conscience and acquired a limited peace. However, your conscience will not always sleep, you may not acknowledge it as a sin, but you know you have done wrong. You know you have hurt others with your actions and words. You know you have character flaws that trouble you. This you will never escape and you will take it to your grave. All the things you wish you had never done, things you wish you could do over again will meet you in the end leaving your last breath filled with regret. If you suggest your life is such that this will not be true, then you are one of which history has yet to record. If you give yourself to some religion to somehow become worthy of a god's approval or of some state of heavenly existence, in the end, you will likewise find yourself empty and troubled in spirit.
VOLTAIRE: "I am abandoned by God and man! I will give you half of what I am worth if you will give me six months' life. Then I shall go to hell; and you will go with me. O Christ! O Jesus Christ!" -Charles Buck, writing on the death of Voltaire, 1842.
The death of THOMAS PAINE: “We arrived at the house; a decent-looking elderly woman (probably his housekeeper,) came to the door and inquired whether we were the Catholic priests, for said she, ‘Mr. Paine has been so much annoyed of late by other denominations calling upon him that he has left express orders with me to admit no one to-day but the clergymen of the Catholic Church. Upon assuring her that we were Catholic clergymen she opened the door and showed us into the parlor. She then left the room and shortly after returned to inform us that Paine was asleep, and, at the same time, expressed a wish that we would not disturb him, ’for,’ said she, ‘he is always in a bad humor when roused out of his sleep. It is better we wait a little till he be awake.’ We accordingly sat down and resolved to await a more favorable moment. ‘Gentlemen,’ said the lady, after having taken her seat also, ‘I really wish you may succeed with Mr. Paine, for he is laboring under great distress of mind ever since he was informed by his physicians that he cannot possibly live and must die shortly. He sent for you to-day because he was told that if any one could do him good you might. Possibly he may think you know of some remedy which his physicians are ignorant of. He is truly to be pitied. His cries when he is left alone are heart-rending. ’O Lord help me! ’he will exclaim during his paroxysms of distress – ’God help me – Jesus Christ help me!’ repeating the same expressions without the least variation, in a tone of voice that would alarm the house. Sometimes he will say, ‘O God, what have I done to suffer so much! ’then, shortly after, ’But there is no God,’ and again a little after, ‘Yet if there should be, what would become of me hereafter.’ Thus he will continue for some time, when on a sudden he will scream, as if in terror and agony, and call out for me by name. On one of these occasions, which are very frequent, I went to him and inquired what he wanted. ‘Stay with me,’ he replied, ‘for God’s sake, for I cannot bear to be left alone.’ I then observed that I could not always be with him, as I had much to attend to in the house. ‘Then,’ said he, ‘send even a child to stay with me, for it is a hell to be alone.’ ‘I never saw,’ she concluded, ‘a more unhappy, a more forsaken man. It seems he cannot reconcile himself to die.’
“Such was the conversation of the woman who had received us, and who probably had been employed to nurse and take care of him during his illness. She was a Protestant, yet seemed very desirous that we should afford him some relief in his state of abandonment, bordering on complete despair. Having remained thus some time in the parlor, we at length heard a noise in the adjoining passage-way, which induced us to believe that Mr. Paine, who was sick in that room, had awoke. We accordingly proposed to proceed thither, which was assented to by the woman, and she opened the door for us. On entering, we found him just getting out of his slumber. A more wretched being in appearance I never beheld. He was lying in a bed sufficiently decent of itself, but at present besmeared with filth; his look was that of a man greatly tortured in mind; his eyes haggard, his countenance forbidding, and his whole appearance that of one whose better days had been one continued scene of debauch. His only nourishment at this time, as we were informed, was nothing more than milk punch, in which he indulged to the full extent of his weak state. He had partaken, undoubtedly, but very recently of it, as the sides and corners of his mouth exhibited very unequivocal traces of it, as well as of blood, which had also followed in the track and left its mark on the pillow. His face, to a certain extent, had also been besmeared with it.”
Immediately upon their making known the object of their visit, Paine interrupted the speaker by saying: “That’s enough, sir; that’s enough,” and again interrupting him, “I see what you would be about. I wish to hear no more from you, sir. My mind is made up on that subject. I look upon the whole of the Christian scheme to be a tissue of absurdities and lies, and Jesus Christ to be nothing more than a cunning knave and impostor.” He drove them out of the room, exclaiming: “Away with you and your God, too; leave the room instantly; all that you have uttered are lies – filthy lies; and if I had a little more time I would prove it, as I did about your impostor, Jesus Christ.”
This, we think, will suffice. We have a mass of letters containing statements confirmatory of what we have published in regard to the life and death of Paine, but nothing more can be required. - excerpt Thomas Paine National Historical Association
Friday, July 26, 2024
Wednesday, July 24, 2024
Seven Questions
Yes, even though the current scientific observation places them some 200 million years ago. According to {Worldatlas.com} it is difficult to determine when modern man became aware of these giant creatures. Some large bones were discovered as early as the 16th Century and it took some time afterward to determine what these large bones were. Some thought they might have been from a race of giants that once lived on the earth such as the one mentioned in the Biblical story of David and Goliath. As the scientific community developed their understanding of what they were discovering, the name Dinosaur was invented and given to the extinct creatures in 1842.
The Bible challenges many of the conclusions the scientific community has arrived at in their understanding of the data being analyzed over the past few centuries. I admit my apologetics are driven by a presuppositional Biblical worldview, therefore I approach these scientific assertions with skepticism.
It has long been suggested that dinosaurs and humans never existed together because we have never found the two fossilized together in the same layer. However, this is not proof they did not exist together, it's just proof they have never been found together. Considering 95% of all fossils are shallow marine organisms, such as corals and shellfish and 95% of the remaining 5% are algae and plants. The 95% of the remaining 0.25% are invertebrates, including insects. The remaining 0.0125% are vertebrates, mostly fish. Then we must understand that 95% of land vertebrates consist of less than one bone. The number of dinosaur fossils is actually relatively small, compared to other types of creatures. Not finding human and dinosaur fossils together is not that surprising.
A new study demonstrates that contrary to previous opinions, human ancestors did indeed live along with the dinosaurs. (Human and Dinosaur) This new study does not depart from the popular evolutionary design but suggests that Human evolution occurred much earlier than they previously thought. This new discovery does not fit their current model, so they simply move the human evolution back 66 million years.
According to Wikipedia, Mary Higby Schweitzer is an American paleontologist at North Carolina State University, who led the groups that discovered the remains of blood cells in dinosaur fossils and later discovered soft tissue remains in the Tyrannosaurus rex specimen MOR 1125, as well as evidence that the specimen was a pregnant female when she died. This is interesting because the Tyrannosaurus is said to have been extinct for 65 million years. That's a problem because soft tissue and blood cells under perfect conditions only survive for thousands of years, not millions. How to explain these new discoveries without abandoning the millions of years scheme is difficult. Some scientists are suggesting that there must have been some previous means of preservation we are not aware of enabling this tissue to survive so long. This would however fit within the Biblical timeline of 6 to 10 thousand years.
Of course, this subject rarely comes up without that dreaded carbon 14 formula, doesn't that prove the dinosaurs lived millions of years ago? For some reason that is the common assumption, but carbon-14 dating, is a scientific method that can accurately determine the age of organic materials as old as approximately 60,000 years. Carbon 14 shouldn't even be in dinosaur bones, the fact it exists is another reason to place them within the Biblical timeframe. Scientists who accept a young earth creation are considered by the mainstream scientific community as non-credible resources. However, they acquired their credentials and achieved their degree of study from the same sources as other scientists. If they would fall in line with the popular narrative they would be cited as credible sources. In conclusion, from the data presented by the scientific community, I find no difficulty with the Biblical view. The problem arises when you approach the issue committed to millions of years, the data is then viewed to fit that narrative.
A recent discovery of the first perfectly preserved stomach context reveals the dietary habits of the Tyrannosaurus. This specimen was a 5 to 7-year-old classified among the Tyrannosaurus. The stomach contents revealed two hindlegs of a bird-like dinosaur. Apparently, he liked prehistoric chicken legs! The scientific journal reports, "Skeletal remains preserved in the abdominal cavity of the juvenile Gorgosaurus consist exclusively of articulated and associated postcranial elements, primarily from the hindlimbs, of two separate individuals of the small caenagnathid theropod Citipes elegant" (science.org) So no doubt they were meat eaters! Probably didn't make good pets. This is a fascinating discovery, one which could be cited in the first question, if this dinosaur is 64 million years old, how are its stomach contents still preserved?
However, staying with question #2, there is no doubt these creatures along with lions, tigers, and the like were and are meat eaters. The assertion is that they were not originally violent before the Biblical event of the fall. The period referred to would most likely have been very short. After the fall, creation was subsequently dramatically changed, and man as well as animal life took on a violent nature.
Genesis 6:11 ESV
(11) Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight, and the earth was filled with violence.
If we assume that the population doubles every 150 years which is a conservative number, we can find our results. Starting with only Noah and his family in 2500 BC, 4,500 years is more than enough time for the present population to reach over 8 billion. Using the current rule of 70 methods, if Noah's family of 8 only had a 2% growth rate, their population would have doubled in 35 years, not 150. This is not to assert that we have had a constant population growth throughout human history, but simply to demonstrate that achieving the current population from the time of Noah with 8 people is easily provable. The question should not be, could it be achieved, but why there are only 8 billion if we have been here for hundreds of thousands of years, not 4,500?
Question #4: Would you agree that if you answer yes to Question #3 above you automatically imply we are all the result of incest within Noah's family?
This indeed does seem strange to us, for most of us in today's culture this is a grotesque thought and should be. Remember, Noah's sons and their family lived hundreds of years, so marrying nephews and nieces would not have been like it is today. Noah's son Shem lived 600 years. The human Geno would not have been broken down as it is today, so health concerns for close-relation marriages had not yet developed. That would begin to be addressed during the time of Moses. The practice of men taking multiple wives also would have increased the population growth.
Question #5: According to one documentary, Noah, his family, and approximately 6500 animals survived on stored food, without decay or spoilage, for 370 days. Is that possible?
It is, there are several methods of preserving or supplying meat. Meat can be preserved through drying, smoking, salting, or pickling. Certain fish can pack themselves in mud and survive for years without water, these could have been stored on the ark. Fish eggs, live eels, or fish stored in barrels or sealed wooden crates, earthworms, and snails are just some of the many more protein food items Noah could have brought as food for the animals. In addition, earthworms, eels, snails, and Noah may have also brought mealworms and other insects onto the ark as food, and these can be bred for both carnivores and insectivores, providing food for supposedly meat-only creatures. Cricket or grasshopper flour could have been baked into the equivalent of protein bars or sprinkled on other food, as could the ground seeds of gourds.
We are not told, but many of the animals could have temporarily entered a state of hibernation and required less food. But even without this providing for the animal and human food consumption would be doable. The Ark dimensions could accommodate 650 large animal pens and over 1,000 small ones. Over 4,000 birds could have been housed, and over 650 reptiles. It could have carried over 450 tons of food storage leaving 1,800 sq ft of living space for Noah and his family. So yes, it is possible.
Well, most fish didn't survive. In fact, if you'd been a diver in the oceans before the flood, and then you'd been saved on the Ark and had started diving again after the flood, you would've said something like, "What happened? Where's everything gone?" You see, most marine species were killed during the flood. Now certainly some fish did survive, and we see their descendants in the oceans today. How did freshwater fish survive in the saltwater oceans? There are two possibilities. First, there are many areas in the world today where we see freshwater and saltwater together, and the two waters don't mix. So it's possible that certain organisms survived in pockets of fresh or salt water. Second, because of natural selection, which creationists accept, organisms today have become very specialized. Organisms at the time of the flood, however, would've been much stronger and able to tolerate many more changes than they can today. There's really no problem at all in answering this question.
Yes, perhaps the most obvious is explained by Babel, the origin of the various languages present in our world. While an evolutionary worldview might expect all languages to trace back to a single parent language (much like it claims all life traces back to one organism), that isn’t what researchers have found. Instead, language families of today trace back to multiple unrelated parent languages, which is what one would predict from the Babel account.
But why, then, do people from various parts of the world look so different from each other? The explanation for differences in physical appearance is simple. As the groups spread out and separated from each other after Babel, their gene pools were largely isolated, generally more so, the farther apart they were and physical features such as certain skin shades or eye shapes gradually became dominant within each group. Originally there would have been one skin tone and minor physical differences. As they were isolated, the distinctive features would have begun to develop. These distinctive features are still reflected in the diversity among people groups today. But far from evidence of evolution, these minor genetic differences are the natural result of the loss of genetic variability that occurs when people groups are isolated from one another.
Hope this has been helpful,
David
Monday, July 22, 2024
The Bullet
As it was put by one friend of mine, ". . . if God intervened to protect Trump why did he not do it in a way to prevent the death of an innocent and good man Corey Comperatore? My heart and tears, not prayers, goes out to his family. I will keep the picture above [referring to a picture of Corey Comperatore's family] to remind me a loving compassionate God does not exist. His explanation goes like this, "The shooter was an imperfect human who missed a small moving target a couple of hundred yards away. It is not hard to believe he missed because of his own doing, he missed! Actually, the shooter hit his target but just not a bullseye. A mythical God had nothing to do with it."
Another writer put it this way, "There is something wrong with a theology that says God intervened to save Donald Trump, which implies in an awful way that God redirected the bullet into the person who was killed at his rally or the two people who were grievously injured."
These comments, both those of the critics and the divine intervention comments, are produced by the misunderstanding of two doctrines of the Christian faith. The doctrine of God and the doctrine of Providence. Volumes have been written on these two doctrines which can guide you through the scriptures developing them with more clarity. One excellent resource would be "The Existence and Attributes of God" by 17th-century author Stephen Charnock. The Existence and Attributes of God It is a 5-volume set if you are inclined to a much deeper study.
When hearing the comments concerning God's intervention I really didn't take issue with it, I understand most religious people simply respond similarly to such unexplainable circumstances. One image that has been put forth is a picture of the Virgin Mary pushing the bullet slightly to the side with her finger as it passes the former President.
Since this criticism has arisen it seems proper to address it. Obviously, the full context of these two doctrines cannot be reached in a short blog post. However, we will strive to clarify how Christians should view these past events. First, American TV preachers have done a great deal of harm to the Doctrine of God. They have created an image of a sugar daddy god whose sole purpose is to make your life better and give you success. All these things indirectly lead us to where we are today in our misunderstanding of God's involvement in these events.
To the question, "Did God intervene and save the life of the former President?" I understand the statement but intervene is not the best word for what happened. The explanation my friend gave suggesting the shooter simply missed, or at least missed by enough margin to avoid a tragedy in the life of the former President is closer to the truth than the term "God intervened". To say God intervened is to suggest certain events were going to take place in history and God miraculously intervened and changed those events to a different outcome. However, He only changed history for one, namely the former President, He did not change history for Corey Comperatore and the other two victims. Unless you want to suggest God directed the bullets in such a way as to kill and injure other innocent people.
Thursday, July 11, 2024
Sunday, May 19, 2024
Sovereignty of God in Salvation (Part 4)
However, I did eventually locate the quote, it is from the book "Suffering and the Sovereignty of God" by John Piper and Justin Taylor first printed in 2006. The quote given by Flowers was from a section written by Mark Tobert.
I have not heard of Mark Tobert before, so I don't know his views. However, in the context of this quote, he is attempting to explain actions that occurred in a concentration camp and the brutality committed against the Jews, which caused a young man named Elie Wiesel to throw off his faith as a result of what he observed. The fact that God allowed such evil convinced him that men must be stronger than God. The quote by Tobert is difficult to accept, but we must understand the subject he is addressing is difficult to answer.
The first part of the quote was taken from page 42 "God . . . brings about all things in accordance with his will. In other words, it isn’t just that God manages to turn the evil aspects of our world to good for those who love him; it is rather that he himself brings about these evil aspects for his glory (see Ex. 9:13-16; John 9:3) and his people’s good (see Heb. 12:3-11; James 1:2-4). This includes, as incredible and as unacceptable as it may currently seem, God’s having even brought about the Nazis’ brutality at Birkenau and Auschwitz as well as the terrible killings of Dennis Rader and even the sexual abuse of a young child:" the rest of the quote occurred later and is from page 47 of the book, '“The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil” (Prov. 16:4, NASB ). Flowers neglected to post the scripture references provided by the author defending his statements so I included them here. It should also be noted the author of the quote gave much explanation for the statements he puts forward which Flowers does not include. It should be understood in the context of this quote Mark Tobert also said, {". . .we need to know what Scripture says in general about God’s relationship to evil. Scripture declares that the Judge of all the earth will always do what is right (see Gen. 18:25). God is, as Moses sings, “the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just.” He is a “faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he” (Deut. 32:4, NIV). God never does evil. Page 41 “All the good that is ours in Christ”}
Going back to the original quote given by Flowers, how could someone possibly suggest God would do such things? It seems God himself would, Isaiah Chapter 19, God is actively stirring up evil in the heart of the Egyptians. He is going to move them against each other, people are going to be killed, and families are going to be broken. As the text goes on God is going to bring about catastrophes that will create hunger and starvation.
{Isa 19:1 An oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud and comes to Egypt; and the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.
Isa 19:2 And I will stir up Egyptians against Egyptians, and they will fight, each against another and each against his neighbor, city against city, kingdom against kingdom}.
Again God lashes out at Isreal saying, {Amo 3:1 Hear this word that the LORD has spoken against you, O people of Israel, against the whole family that I brought up out of the land of Egypt:} then declares, {Amo 3:6 Is a trumpet blown in a city, and the people are not afraid? Does disaster come to a city, unless the LORD has done it?} God declares if a disaster comes to a city, it will not come unless He causes it.
We could look at {1Sa 16:14 Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a harmful spirit from the LORD tormented him. God even controls and commands harmful or evil spirits.
1Sa 16:15 And Saul's servants said to him, “Behold now, a harmful spirit from God is tormenting you.} or {Num 21:6 Then the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died.} We could consider, {2Ki 21:12 therefore thus says the LORD, the God of Israel: Behold, I am bringing upon Jerusalem and Judah such disaster that the ears of everyone who hears of it will tingle.}
In the New Testament, {Act 5:3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land?
Act 5:4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to man but to God.”
Act 5:5 When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last. And great fear came upon all who heard of it.
Act 5:6 The young men rose and wrapped him up and carried him out and buried him.
Act 5:7 After an interval of about three hours his wife came in, not knowing what had happened.
Act 5:8 And Peter said to her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for so much.” And she said, “Yes, for so much.”
Act 5:9 But Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.”
Act 5:10 Immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. When the young men came in they found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her beside her husband.
Act 5:11 And great fear came upon the whole church and upon all who heard of these things.} Why did they have great fear? God was killing people!
Needless to say, we could go on and on with God's absolute Sovereignty over His creation, yet we also find verses such as {Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,} There appears great tension throughout the Scriptures between those portions that speak of God's Sovereignty and those that speak of man's responsibility. He commands men to choose rightly and then declares He is sovereign over their choices. It is difficult for us to understand how God can control everything and man still be free to choose his own way.
Tuesday, May 14, 2024
Sovereignty of God in Salvation (Part 3)
1 Timothy 2:3-4 ESV
(3) This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior,
(4) who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
In this post, we will continue to examine 1 Timothy 2:3-4. Christians are divided as to how to understand its meaning when applied to the work of God in Salvation. Those (sometimes called Provisionists) see it as saying God's purpose in Salvation is to save every individual and God's saving grace is given to all (Provisional grace is provided for all) who will receive it. Others (sometimes called Calvinists) view God's Salvation as a Sovereign decree to a certain number of fallen sinners called the elect. Whereas God's saving grace (Effectual grace) is given to an elect number chosen before the foundation of the world to bring them to Christ. The non-elect are not restricted from coming to Christ except by their own unbelief and rebellion. Verse 4 appears to affirm the provisional grace view over the effectual grace view.
The Calvinist tries to understand it in a particular sense when it seems to be in the general sense. One way he does this is to see the "all people" in the verse as all of a particular group, "all of the elect" not all in general. Some approach it differently by seeing two wills demonstrated in God, a general will that is not necessarily always achieved, and a decretive will that must come to pass by necessity.
Provisionist have their problem with certain other Scriptures such as verses similar to what we find in Ephesians.
Ephesians 1:4-6 ESV
(4) even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love [notice he chose with a purpose, that we should be holy and blameless.]
(5) he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, [notice it is not an arbitrary choice, it was with purpose according to His will]
(6) to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
Rev 13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.
Here it appears God's scope of Salvation is selective to a particular group chosen before the foundation of the world. Provisionists try to avoid the difficulty by asserting that the choosing before the foundation of the world is not the individual but a yet-to-be-defined group. People generally fall into the Provisionist camp because it just seems right to us that God would save everyone, or at least try. John 3:16 has also been interpreted in a way that lends to this being a popular view. John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." Does that not say God loves the whole world? Does whoever believes not apply to everyone? It sure sounds like it does!
But the same author who wrote Joh 3:16 also wrote Joh 6:64 three chapters later, "But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” Chapter 6 tells us who the ones who believe in Chapter 3 are, the ones who were granted by the Father. This is in agreement with 2Ti 2:25 "In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;" which also sheds more light on 1Ti 2:4 "who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." We can see the two wills of God at work in those verses. In 1Ti 2:4 we see the general or some call it will of command where God's desire is that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, and in 2Ti 2:25 the decretive will that only those who are given repentance will actually come to the acknowledgment of the truth.
Leighton Flowers suggests that "granting" someone something does not mean they will actually do it, you are just making it possible for them to do it. However, the context and structure of the passage will not force that interpretation. In both verses, the word translated "granted" and "given" are the same Greek word {δίδωμι}. It is the same word translated as "give" in Mat 10:1 "And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every affliction". Did Jesus actually give {δίδωμι} them authority or did He just make authority possible?
Job 38:5 Who determined its measurements—surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it?
Job 38:6 On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone,
Job 38:7 when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
We see from verse 7 that the Angels were singing and shouting for joy, amazed at the succeeding events of creation. Let's stretch our minds further back before the beginning. What do we have before verse 1? We know what we do not have, no Heaven, no Earth, no Angels, no space (or void), no created being. We learn from Isa 57 we have God and eternity, "Isa 57:15 For thus says the One who is high and lifted up, who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy: “I dwell in the high and holy place, and also with him who is of a contrite and lowly spirit, to revive the spirit of the lowly, and to revive the heart of the contrite."
What does all this have to do with 1 Timothy 2:3-4? It is where God's plan and purpose for man began. 1Pe 1:20 "He [Christ] was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you" [It was established in eternity and then worked out in time and space.]
Eph 1:4 "even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him."
2Ti 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began," [Take notice He saved us according to his own purpose, it was done by grace which was given to us and established Christ before the world began.]
Psa 2:7 "I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession."
Luk 22:22 "And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!"
Act 2:23 "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:"
Whatever God's desire for man is, clearly from these Scripture it was determined before Creation in eternity. It is well understood that one attribute of God's being is that He is all-knowing. His knowledge spans not only the present creation but time itself. Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Armed with this understanding, we can conclusively say, in the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, before the foundation of the world was ever established, God acted with full knowledge and comprehensive understanding of all creation from beginning to end. Regardless of how we want to interpret that fact, we are forced to acknowledge God created the world with full knowledge man would fall and the vast majority would be lost and condemned to everlasting punishment. We must also acknowledge it is that world He chose to create.
This is why, how we view verses like 1 Timothy 2:(4) "who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." and understand the meaning correctly is so important. Leighton Flowers suggests when Calvinists speak of the elect, or as he likes to say, "flip the switch on" and God does not "flip the switch on" for all of them, they are saying God wants some people to be saved and He doesn't want other people to be saved. Flowers is masterful at twisting the Reformed doctrine of election into "God wants these people but God doesn't want those people saved doctrine."
It is foolish to say God did His best, but His best man failed. It is foolish to say creation went wrong and God had to send His Son to save as many as He could! By doing so, we charge God with a failure, make Christ plan B, and worship a God who did His best but could only achieve part of His plan. He wanted to save all, but could only save a few. Do you see why it is so important how we understand 1 Timothy 2:4? It determines what we say about God.
We must let the Scriptures be our guide, Thomas Campbell once said, "Where the Bible speaks; we speak; where the Bible is silent, we are silent". If Paul tells us God "desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth", we must believe that's God's desire, but it must be understood in such a way it does not violate God's revelation of who He is. If Paul tells us Eph 1:4 . . . he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, and Eph 1:5 . . . "predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will", we must believe he did by the same measures. If there are two wills there we must accept that. You will ask, how can God desire all people to be saved and choose to predestinate and elect certain ones before the foundation of the world? Deu 29:29 “The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law. How these things work out in redemption may remain somewhat of a secret, the fact they do does not depend upon us.
For God's ultimate plan and purposes to be, it is necessary that certain things must come to pass in space and time. Mat 18:7 “Woe to the world for temptations to sin! For it is necessary that temptations come, but woe to the one by whom the temptation comes! We look at the troubles in the world and wonder how God could be in control. Mat 24:6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. Mat 24:10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. Mat 24:25 See, I have told you beforehand. Matthew 24:25 declares He has told us beforehand these things must be, it is according to the Plan and Purpose of Him with whom we have to do. As you follow the pages of Scripture you begin to see the plan unfold.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
When God made the Angels He made myriads, Rev 5:11 Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, yet when God made man He made only two, "male and female he created them." If it was just men God wanted He could have created them in any number like He did the Angels. But it wasn't just men, there is a plan in place, so things must be done a certain way. There is no redemptive plan for the Angels that fell, it won't work for them for they were created in number, each being unrelated to the others. There is no headship, the sin of one angel cannot pass to another.
Created in this fashion, Adam being the head, if he sinned, that would be passed on to his posterity. Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Having once sinned, all that came from Adam would be corrupt, he could produce nothing else. But from eternity there was a plan, 1Pe 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, What began in eternity made our redemption possible, it is a perfect redemption which accomplishes exactly what God decreed it to do.
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
Rom 5:13 for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
Rom 5:16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.
Rom 5:17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
Rom 5:19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous. That is a glorious plan, not by accident but by eternal decree.
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