In this post, we will continue to address Sarge's objections to my previous post "The Human Condition"
You can read his entire text in the comment section of the posts at the link above. At one point he stated, "The God character in the Bible is a racist because he clearly favors Jews over other people and sent his chosen people to destroy those who were not Jews."
In the scriptures we find God did indeed choose a people for himself.
Deuteronomy 10:15 ESV (15) Yet the LORD set his heart in love on your fathers and chose their offspring after them, you above all peoples, as you are this day.
But does choosing a people make one a racist? Let's examine why God chose a people for himself.
Deuteronomy 7:6-8 ESV
(6) “For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
(7) It was not because you were more in number than any other people that the LORD set his love on you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all peoples,
(8) but it is because the LORD loves you and is keeping the oath that he swore to your fathers, that the LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
The people God chose for himself were not chosen on any trait or superiority that would constitute a racist act, in fact, they were the least of the people on the earth. They were poor and enslaved people, and they proved to be not only ignorant of God himself but rebellious toward Him. There was nothing superior in themselves as a people that moved Him toward them, He simply loved them. There is nothing racist by definition in God choosing a people for Himself. In fact, the choosing of Israel was the means to bless all the nations of the earth, it was sin that brought destruction to all, including Israel.
Genesis 22:17-18 ESV
(17) I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies,
(18) and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice.”
But Sarge takes it way beyond racist, for after speaking of God sending this chosen people to destroy others, he states,
"The God character in the Bible has committed infanticide by killing infants in Sodom and Gomorrah for the sins of their parents. The God character in the Bible committed infanticide by killing all the infants in the world with his worldwide flood. Again, babies were killed for the sins of their parents. Richard Dawkins gave a long list of accurate descriptive adjectives describing the Christian God in his book "The God Delusion." He was correct and it is not an opinion to describe what one is called based on his actions. (referencing a comment I made, he continues)
You also stated in your first paragraph whole families perished that day, children and all, it was a very grim scene. You then ask, But was it deserved? Are you kidding me? Are you saying children deserved to die for the sins of their parents?"Is this the God in the Bible? Clearly, it is for Sarge and many like him, yet Christianity is founded upon the love and grace of God. Seems someone is looking at the wrong picture! Perhaps it's better said, not seeing the full picture. Many like Sarge look at the killing and suffering in the Bible and see only killing and suffering, and that at the hand of an unjust god character. This is annoying to them because Christians seem to overlook, pretend or ignore it altogether. Then they (the Christians) have the audacity to suggest that they (Sarge and those like him) should worship this wonderful God that they see nothing wonderful in. And so it has been from the beginning.
We could liken it to the novel Flatland, it was written in part as a way of explaining what is meant by transcendence in religion. It posits a group of people living in a two-dimensional world, and thus many of the phenomena that can only be understood from a three-dimensional perspective are mysterious to Flatlanders, as the Flatlanders cannot really understand three-dimensional thought.
In short, Flatlanders have no depth perception, they can only see each other as lines. Even the concept of two-dimensional shapes has to be deduced through a long chain of reasoning; only the well-educated can actually figure out another Flatlander's shape accurately.
Finally, when Mr. and Mrs. Flat meet Mr. Sphere, they slowly come to understand there is more to their world than Flatland, but because Flatlanders perceive only two dimensions, they cannot understand that there are dimensions beyond them.
The likeness is to say, we are flat in a flat creation and there is only one Sphere, that is the Creator. The flat knows nothing of what it means to be Sphere, understanding Sphere things is most difficult for the flat. What flat does understand he has to understand from only flat reasoning and flat language. This is the difficulty of understanding spiritual things with a natural mind. The spiritual has to be explained in natural language and likenesses.
1 Corinthians 2:13-14 ESV
(13) And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
(14) The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
To many, the Bible is but foolishness, Christian reasoning makes no sense to them. Consider, did God send the nation Israel to destroy other nations? Yes, that is recorded. Have nations of the world always gone in and destroyed other nations? Yes, that is recorded in our human history. Did children die when God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and when he destroyed the world in the Flood? Yes, we can deduce that from the record. Have children died in catastrophes throughout human history? Yes, that is also recorded in human history. Are we to assume God only had something to do with those special events recorded in the Bible and nothing to do with the rest of human history? I think not!
From our flatland, we see our children as pure and innocent, and from the human perspective, they are. Hitler's parents undoubtedly saw their child as innocent, at that moment in time he was from our flat perspective, what he really was would later mature, and time would reveal the truth that rested in his bosom. Every child will eventually lie, cheat, steal, or hurt another child in time. It is simply what is in us. Some say we are judged for the sins of our first parents, the doctrine of original sin is difficult for flatlanders, but given time we do our own sinning, its just what is in us. God sees from outside time, He sees what is really in man, therefore His judgment is just.
John 2:23-25 ESV
(23) Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs that he was doing.
(24) But Jesus on his part did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people
(25) and needed no one to bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in man.
From the human perspective, it appeared many believed, but the reality was, they could not be trusted because of what was in them. It is these things we cannot see from our flatland, they are spiritual realities that are beyond our perception. The scriptures reveal to us certain truths in language that is answerable to us, and in limited ways reveal to us truths from God's perspective.
We read the language in scripture that says,
Genesis 2:16-17 ESV
(16) And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden,
(17) but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
From flatland that seems ridiculous, to be sentenced to death for eating some fruit in a garden! From the use of our human language, we can deduce that death came not because the fruit was poison, but because the act was. A God that would demand such obedience, from Flatland appears to be a tyrant! What we cannot see from Flatland, is the reality of an eternal infinite Being in absolute perfection and what it actually means for a finite creature to step outside even in the slightest measure from what is absolutely owed to such a being. The command "You shall not eat" sounds ridiculous because it is designed to capture our attention. If it had been the theft of God's throne and the murder of an angel, one might come to the conclusion from Flatland that man certainly had done something wrong and deserved his punishment. The eating of the fruit presents us with a scenario in which even the slightest breach of obedience is an eternally weighty measure. Because we do not understand what God is in His Being, we do not comprehend what Adam did in his being and how it passes to us. Yet the language in the Bible conveys to us the horror of the curse that we see throughout human history. We in our short-sightedness miss the mercy extended to this world as the Creator uses the curse and the suffering to present us with a great redemptive story as we follow it throughout His progressive revelation in the scripture.
Some would lead us to believe that God is cruel commanding these two poor creatures through this unbearable hardship of obedience. However, let us realize, the Biblical account puts them in paradise with every need met and the experience of the greatest joy. The only thing required in return was don't eat the fruit of that tree! In all of that, rebellion lodged in their heart.
The Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, are but two great catastrophes in a long list of suffering in human history. Sarge asks me if Children deserve to die for the sins of their parents? That is a rhetorical question, he knows I don't believe children should die for the sins of their parents. But that is natural reasoning, the reality is, everybody dies and children are no exception. The spiritual reality of this from a Biblical perspective is sin, it condemns us all, both young and old. Sarge and those like him do not believe in sin and its effect, therefore, they ask questions like the one above. The spiritual reality is, if there had not been sin in the world no one would have died in the Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, or any other time in human history. Paul examines sin in Romans Chapter 7 and demonstrates that the act is only a result of what is in man from his conception. It is what is in man that has brought such a curse upon our history. Sarge asks what children deserve, what does anyone deserve, old or young, who by their very nature are rebellious toward every desire of God?
Romans 7:18 ESV
(18) For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.
Many look at all the suffering and death in the world and become annoyed at the concept of a good God who is love. For this good God is either able to do something about it and will not or he can't. Either way in their mind it disqualifies the concept of a good God. The problem is God truly is good and man truly is corrupt from the core of his being.
The great redemptive story is playing out in human history. In the midst of a sin-cursed world God leaves Himself not without witness. For the man that despises God, the joys of life are afforded to him. He is able to love and be loved, to experience joy and peace, to work and reap his reward. None of these things are deserved, for he despises God or the concept of a god and is cursed. Yet, he is afforded all these things and gives not God the glory. The world is cursed, and human history is cursed, yet God still sends His mercy into the midst of the suffering and judgment for a reprieve and to lead men to repentance. Repentance is not something man gives to God, but something God grants to men, for even that is not deserved.
2 Timothy 2:25 ESV
(25) correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
If indeed man was not guilty, if sin was not inherent in his very being, then one perhaps could read the accounts of the flood, or Sodom and Gomorrah and cry, "Unjust"! One might esteem the children deserving of life more than others. If there was a single man that lived a life without a mark of unrighteousness, then perhaps the God of the Bible is all the critics say He is. But logic demands if you are going to judge God based upon what the Bible says He is, you must judge man for what the Bible says he is.
In Romans Paul tells us, Romans 3:10 ESV (10) as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; that is not a single one, ever! If that is the requirement, and not a single one meets the requirement, what does he deserve? Does he deserve another chance? Does he deserve to have a good life and peace? He deserves nothing, yet God gives him all these things and time to repent, and still, he will not. Oh, but some will point to all the good things that men do. But it earns them nothing, their righteousness is corrupt.
Isaiah 64:6 ESV
(6) We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
We do a good deed, then some hidden motive resting in our heart brings it to ruin. Robert Robinson wrote as a young man in his twenties a few years after his conversion, "Prone to wander, Lord, I feel it. Prone to leave the God I love". They appeared in 1758 in one of the stanzas of his now classic hymn, “Come, thou fount of ev’ry blessing.” The hymn as a whole is a great testimony to the grace of God that had saved him, notwithstanding a heart that was “prone to wander.” This is the experience of every Christian, I feel it, a heart prone to wander. I am all familiar with it myself, I feel it in every good deed. A thought, a desire, a look to be noticed, a want for someone to see me, someone to recognize me for the good person I am. It is that corrupt selfish heart in us that pollutes every act of righteousness. Those good deeds may indeed make me look like a good man in the eyes of the world, but I am in ruins when presented to God as righteous.
This is why the Gospel is so precious to Christians, we see the condition of our hearts, yet God has forgiven us and loved us. This is beyond the Christian understanding, of how such a Being could love such a creature. We have thousands of years of history, and in all of that, we have only been able to sustain civility for short brief moments of time before our depravity breaks out again. Throughout redemptive history, God gave laws and instructions to the prophets to curb our sins. Yet we still break through and expose ourselves for what we are. Yet as he promised he has delivered us by and for himself.
For reasons beyond our flat understanding, we are unable to raise ourselves beyond our fallen condition. This God took upon himself a body of flesh like unto ourselves and lived the life we could not live. Then he presented Himself as a substitute on our behalf to satisfy His own demands of justice that we in turn might be free. He was then raised from the dead to validate the victory. Through faith in this work, we are received and considered righteous, and even this is by grace, being nothing of ourselves. Scripture makes it clear we are still in this world, and it is still cursed. Therefore, our children still die, our bodies still weaken, and our minds still fade away. But when this life passes, we are judged in Him and not in ourselves. This is (the) great comfort to the Christian in this life.
David
